Numismatikforum

An 1891(91) 1-peseta (5g, .835 silver) of the Spanish King Alfonso XIII, with the baby-portrait that seems to intrigue so very many of the coin collectors who see it.

This 1891(91) example is from the second mintage of this type—an earlier mintage is dated 1889(89)—and these later coins are by far the commoner of the two dates. This particular example is in much better condition than I usually see these pesetas; they seem to have been extremely busy coins in their day.

Alfonso XIII turned five the year this 1891(91)piece was coined, and had been King the whole time. His father Alfonso XII had died before he was born, and it has to be a temptation for some of the more superstitious among us to combine the fact of his father’s untimely death with his own hard luck—Alfonso XIII was driven from the throne in 1931—and make the obvious connection with his unlucky number 13.

Alfonso XIII did make something of a comeback, however, when his grandson Juan Carlos I acceded to the Spanish throne in 1975 and began appearing on the aluminum-bronze 1-peseta pieces of 1975(76).

v.

A very nice specimen of this enchanting portrait
Spain was the country of eternal circulation,, and those coins would have been in daily use until the civil war.

Thank you for this. It should have been obvious, but I'm afraid I had never made the connection: the Spanish weren't caught by WWI, so the dynamic that interrupted or destroyed the coinages of several of the combatants never really hit the Spanish coinage.

And it begs the question--is this "extra time" the reason that the Scandinavian coinages (of the early monetary union) seem so thoroughly chewed up?

v.

villa66 hat geschrieben:And it begs the question--is this "extra time" the reason that the Scandinavian coinages (of the early monetary union) seem so thoroughly chewed up?

v.

Indeed. The earliest silvercoins struck due to union standard circulated from 1874 to 1921, wich wore them down quiet heavily. After silver ceased in Denmark and Norway the swedish kronor and öre continued to circulate in Sweden at least until 1963 to 1966, when they where replaced by cupronickel , but silvercoins even of Oscar II in very poor condition could occasionaly be seen as late as the early 1980s and even today one single silverkrona now and then may show up.

As the thread has come to Scandinavia - many copper 5 Öre/Øre of 1874 and later have survived in nice grade. I wonder why. They must have circulated all the time as well? I'm asking because I am beginning to collect them, of all the 3 countries, by date. 1874 thru the end of the WWII types. About 70 coins each of the 3 countries, various types but all of the same size, all should be findable (hope-ful-ly).
No logical reason - I just can't help it - must collect something - collect, collect, collect.....
Sigi
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sigistenz hat geschrieben:As the thread has come to Scandinavia - many copper 5 Öre/Øre of 1874 and later have survived in nice grade. I wonder why. They must have circulated all the time as well? I'm asking because I am beginning to collect them, of all the 3 countries, by date. 1874 thru the end of the WWII types. About 70 coins each of the 3 countries, various types but all of the same size, all should be findable (hope-ful-ly).
No logical reason - I just can't help it - must collect something - collect, collect, collect.....
Sigi
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In Norway and Sweden the bronze 1 and 2 øre along with the large 5 øre circulated until 1973. I am not certain about Denmark where the bronze coins where replaced by a new issue with a center hole after WWI. But anyway, no copper would have been in circulation after WWII, when the ugly zink coins took over.
I would not say that at least norwegian and swedish coppers from the period of 1876 to 1945 often do apear in high grades. Perhaps the composition is more withstanding to wear than any silveralloy, but I should say that the average grade those coins are seen today is below vf. Any good EF , not to mention a UNC is really rare. To weeks ago a norwegian 5 øre of 1908 in BU UNC was sold for 3000 euros on a norwegian internet auction.
I definetly can understand the affection for the large 5- øre. They really feel like money in your hand.

I second the observation regarding the pleasing heft of the large 5-ore. A good size for coppers.

Maybe, since the conversation here has taken that northern turn, I could please ask about Sweden's nickel-bronze(?) 10-. 25-, and 50-ore of 1920 and later?

I can make a solid guess about their first appearance in the early '20s, with temporarily high silver prices, the general fallout from WWI, and the more specific fallout from the failing SMU as it lurched to its 1924 end...but what about the later appearances of these base-metal coins, most often concurrent with the production of their silver siblings?

It's a puzzle I've wondered about for some time. Any clue would be most welcome...

v.

villa66 hat geschrieben:I second the observation regarding the pleasing heft of the large 5-ore. A good size for coppers.

Maybe, since the conversation here has taken that northern turn, I could please ask about Sweden's nickel-bronze(?) 10-. 25-, and 50-ore of 1920 and later?

I can make a solid guess about their first appearance in the early '20s, with temporarily high silver prices, the general fallout from WWI, and the more specific fallout from the failing SMU as it lurched to its 1924 end...but what about the later appearances of these base-metal coins, most often concurrent with the production of their silver siblings?

It's a puzzle I've wondered about for some time. Any clue would be most welcome...

v.

Funny how a presentation of a spanish coin would derail completly. The world of numismatics works in unpredictable ways
Of course there are strong ties between Spain and the scandinavian countries, as Spain was an important customer of norwegian fish. My nabour city owed her prosperity to the sale of fish betwen 1750 and the 1930s to Spain alone. When alcohol in Norway was all prohibited between 1917 and 1923, Spain made a threat that she would boycott norwegian fish, wich no doubt contributed to the end of prohibtion and the erection of a state monopol sale for alcohol, wich exists still today.
Speaking of 1917 to 1923, this is exactly the period of change in scandinavian coinissues. After the large silver coins had been replaced by banknotes in 1917, in 1920 the 3 members issued a supplement to the union treaty, allowing each menber to strike coins in cupronickel. Those coins where still legal tender in all three kingdoms.
It was then the swedish cupronickel coins you mentioned saw the day of light and also Denmark and Noway issued 10, 25 and ( only Norway ) 50 øre in cupronickel.

But subsequent to war economy the value of the krone started to differ betwwen the three countries , and a common coinage no longer was usefull. In 1924 this lead to a new supplement allowing any of the three kingdoms to issue an own standardcoinage wich only was legal tender in the issuing country. That was the definate end of the SMU, after 1924 we can speak of three different krone currencies .
Now the ways of the former members spitted up for good. Norway issued a comlete new set of 10, 25, 50 øre and 1 krone wich was struck until 1951. Denmark changed the entire run, even altering the size and introducing her first 50 øre. And Sweden - did nothing , but went back to pre WWI silver.
But it remains odd that even after 1923 the 10, 25 and 50 øre in cupronickel where struck on occasion. I have no explanation what so ever, but I shall put in a question in our norwegian coinforum, perhaps somebodey might know.

Mynter hat geschrieben:Funny how a presentation of a spanish coin would derail completly. The world of numismatics works in unpredictable ways

Yes! Fun...

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Thanks for looking for more information about the cupronickel Swedish 10-, 25- and 50-ore. (Seeing you use "cupronickel" gives me the assurance I need to drop Krause's description of these pieces as "nickel-bronze.")

Thanks also for the other information, such as the 1924 agreement to leave each of the three countries free to substitute base metals for silver if they thought it best.

Another question, along those lines: the amount of "token" coinage allowed to each country. It was a subject that the SMU/SCU dissertation I mentioned had said was a part of the various pre-adoption debates. And of course it would be. (For example, the Latin Monetary Union had a 6-units per capita limit on token silver.)

But I never did see in that paper how that problem was resolved. Was there a limit on the amount of token silver that each SMU country could mint? And if so--surely so--any idea what the limit was?

I thank you again for the enjoyable coin-conversation, here and in other threads, and apologize in advance for any delay in replying--the information you've been giving me is causing me to do some writing (and re-writing) in my coin-notebook.

v.

I received a reply and a link ( in swedish ) for your question about the swedish basemetall 10 to 50 øre of 1920 to 47. According to that swedish coinsite, the mintages after 1924 where due to temporary silver shortnesses. They by the way also reffered to the coins as beeing struck of cupronickel. Next time I am at the library I shall look up what the catalouges of Sieg and Tomkin are telling.

I had a go through my literature on scandinavian coins but I could not find anything at all about limitted mintingfigures for the bronze- and silvercoins. But surely there ought to be a regulation as free minting of tokens was against the very core of a goldcurrency ? In Germany the mintinglimit for silver was fixed by law. I can not see why silver should have been minted freely here.

I enjoy this Scandinavian stuff very much and maybe it deserves a post of its own. How about a new post for continuation? I'll enter a new post rightaway as "Die skandinavische MünzUnion 1874". Any forthcoming discussion could be continued there? Maybe other folks would contribute. OK?
Sigi

Good idea Sigi--the SMU certainly does deserve a post of its own. See you all there. I found a brief entry in my coin-notebook that may be of passing interest on the Swedish 5-ore coins and will post it there later on.

v.