Numismatikforum

I am slowly but surely gaining some headway on my collection reimaging project. Here is an example of an unattributed Goetz piece I acquired last March.

Goetz, K 662(a), The Capture of Antwerp (Prussian), 1914, Struck Silver, 33.4mm, 14.60g., PP (DCAM), RRR.

[ externes Bild ]

Bei Zetzmann ist das Stück unter Nr. 4038 geführt und wird C. Drentwett zugeschrieben (dort RR, Katalogpreise je nach Erhaltung 100 - 250,- €). Den "Kienast" habe ich nicht, kann also nicht feststellen, ob das Stück dort ebenfalls beschrieben ist.
Gruß Lutz12

Lutz12 hat geschrieben:Bei Zetzmann ist das Stück unter Nr. 4038 geführt und wird C. Drentwett zugeschrieben (dort RR, Katalogpreise je nach Erhaltung 100 - 250,- €). Den "Kienast" habe ich nicht, kann also nicht feststellen, ob das Stück dort ebenfalls beschrieben ist.
Gruß Lutz12

Yes, Zetzmann has this attributed to Drentwett but Goetz did many pieces for Drentwett on commission. Goetz couldn't sign his name to these commissioned pieces and I have found many of his works that he did for Drentwett and other medal companies.

This particular piece may have had its reverse done by Drentwett but the obverse bust is a muled bust of Wilhelm that Goetz had done earlier, 1908, for a Kaiser Manover medal. There is no doubt that this image is Goetz's from K 684. This is a companion piece to the Franz Joeseph and Wilhelm piece below (Zetzmann 4037).

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Hi Bronzemonger,

Your contribution on early Goetz medals, produced on commission for Drentwett, clearly underlines the strong commercial orientation of Karl Goetz.
Your examples can be found on pages 306 to 307 of the 41st Moeller auction on Goetz medals. Is your medal one of the Moeller auction?
Many of his political oriented medals were oriented to the general public’s opinion. There is a clear tendency to strong nationalism during his whole period of work.
I have discovered another interesting example for his commercial orientation.
Opus 381 is an honour medal of the University of Marburg. It was first issued in 1927, the year of the anniversary of the University of Marburg. He primarily produced this medal in competition to Benno Elkan, whose medal was chosen as the official commemorative medal, whereas the Goetz medal was chosen as honour medal.

The Goetz medal opus 381is based on a medal made by Andreas Herber in 1550 to the honour of Philippe, the founder of the Marburg University.
Herber's medal was somewhat bigger 71x64 mm, the Goetz medal is about 58 x 50 mm.
These circumstances have been approved by a letter by the son of Karl Goetz, named Guido Goetz dated May 1986, which he addressed to me on these specific questions.
So far it is not known, that in special circumstances Goetz produced copies. It might be that this was necessary due to a certain time pressure.

Best regards
RESEARCH
Homepage über Kunstmedaillen

research hat geschrieben:Hi Bronzemonger,

Your contribution on early Goetz medals, produced on commission for Drentwett, clearly underlines the strong commercial orientation of Karl Goetz.
Your examples can be found on pages 306 to 307 of the 41st Moeller auction on Goetz medals. Is your medal one of the Moeller auction?
Many of his political oriented medals were oriented to the general public’s opinion. There is a clear tendency to strong nationalism during his whole period of work.
I have discovered another interesting example for his commercial orientation.
Opus 381 is an honour medal of the University of Marburg. It was first issued in 1927, the year of the anniversary of the University of Marburg. He primarily produced this medal in competition to Benno Elkan, whose medal was chosen as the official commemorative medal, whereas the Goetz medal was chosen as honour medal.

The Goetz medal opus 381is based on a medal made by Andreas Herber in 1550 to the honour of Philippe, the founder of the Marburg University.
Herber's medal was somewhat bigger 71x64 mm, the Goetz medal is about 58 x 50 mm.
These circumstances have been approved by a letter by the son of Karl Goetz, named Guido Goetz dated May 1986, which he addressed to me on these specific questions.
So far it is not known, that in special circumstances Goetz produced copies. It might be that this was necessary due to a certain time pressure.

Best regards
RESEARCH
Homepage über Kunstmedaillen

Hello Research!!

No doubt that Goetz was first a business man and second an artist. In a nutshell, his primary interest in creating medals was to make a living. Perhaps this is why so many of his competition pieces were not accepted...well, that, and perhaps his politics. I for the life of me don't understand how such an ugly design example such as the accepted Elkan could have beaten out Goetz' unless they were not enthralled with him 'borrowing' the design of Herber.

Goetz appears to have created or muled many of his designs in order to provide material for the medal companies like Drentwett who were pumping out medals as fast as they could make them. I think Goetz used these opportunities to suppliment his income.

Both of the examples I posted above were purchased a year or so ago from Manfred Olding in Osnabruck.

Here is another example of Goetz' muling a design for Drentwett. This is the same Hindenburg obverse used for Goetz' Opus 143 and for Zetzmann 4045 and 4046...however, neither Zetzmann nor Kienast mention this medal. It, again, is definitely Goetz' work.

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Best Regards,

Bronzemonger @karlgoetz.com

Hello Bronzemonger,

I am somewhat surprised that you call the Elkan design "ugly".
Do you categorise this as "degenerated art" ??
Can you please explain your point of view in more detail?

Regards
RESEARCH
Homepage über Kunstmedaillen

Perhaps 'ugly' was the wrong word but every time I see this Elkan example my first thought is that the obverse device placement was not well designed. I am never sure if I am seeing a man or a woman and the effect is somewhat like costumes I have seen people wear to festival...male/female bisected into either left or right halves of the body.

Perhaps you are correct regarding time constraints for the competition. This would explain Goetz borrowing his design and my opinion that Elkan's design was weak.

It might be interesting to research the surrounding circumstances and time parameters associated with this particular competition.

I hope you are not personally offended by my broadly brushed critique of Elkan's design in your personal collection. .. this was not my intention.

Hello Bronzemonger,

In my view Elkan has shown Philippe in the clothes of that time and I believe that the Marburg medal, especially the 100 mm casted bronce medal, is a very nice piece.
But that is my view, if you have a different one, okay.

Best regards

RESEARCH
Homepage über Kunstmedaillen