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Liebe Numismatikfreunde,

Ich hatte eine Anfrage über zwei europäische und eine amerikanische Münze konzipiert und erst dann festgestellt, daß die Unterforen hier nach dem geografischen Ursprung der Münzen aufgeteilt sind. Deshalb noch einmal separat hier meine Anfrage über die amerikanische Münze. Es ist eine "California Gold 1849" Münze von 11.5 mm Durchmesser, und sie ist recht dünn. Ich bin mir ziemlich sicher, daß sie echt ist (siehe den anderen Beitrag: http://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic ... 10&t=36602 ). Was wird sie wohl wert sein?

Vielen Dank,

Robert

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Und ich bin mir ziemlich sicher das nicht echt ist

1848 wurde in Kalifornien Gold gefunden und der Goldrausch begann. Die Bevölkerung wuchs rasant an. Bis auf Gold war alles knapp, auch das Bargeld. Private Unternehmer begannen daher, eigene Goldmünzen in großer Sortenvielfalt , herzustellen, das "california fractional gold". Diese Münzen sind selten und gesucht. Die Anzahl der Fälschungen und Fantasieprodukte übersteigt die Anzahl der echten Stücke bei weitem.

Viele Grüße
Hermann

Nice answer, heku. Describes the dynamic that caused the creation of the mint at San Francisco, and accurately states the facts about the relative availability of authentic California fractional gold and the replicas thereof, both the ubiquitous modern replicas and the relatively few old copies—made as souvenirs in the 19th century—that actually have gold in them.

When I was a boy there were many, many magazine advertisements for these little things both singly and in sets. It seemed to me—inexperienced reader of advertising copy that I was—that they were actual survivors of California Gold Rush days, but later on, of course, I learned that what was being sold in the popular magazines were modern replicas and fantasies.

v.

Das Thema hatte ich hier auch schon mal angefragt ... und eine gute Antwort bekommen!

Gruß klaupo

A good answer, indeed! You all have made me curious enough to some rereading on this subject, which I know next to nothing about....

The following answer isn’t completely satisfactory, because it seems to blur the distinction between “tokens” and “replicas,” but here from his 1968 book whose cover is illustrated below, is Leon Lindheim’s reply to the question “How is it possible to tell a small California gold coin from a token?”

“...The genuine pieces can be recognized because the amount was stated on the reverse, either by ‘C,’ ‘cents,’ ‘Dol,’ or ‘Dollar.’ They were either round or octagonal. Genuine pieces come both dated from 1852 to 1881 and also undated.

“The tokens may be similar to the coins, even bear an early date, but will not state the amount in dollars or cents. Most are of fairly recent origin, with a great many struck for sale at the Panama-Pacific Exposition, held in 1915 at San Francisco. In 1932, B. Max Mehl, largest retail coin dealer in the country at the time, was offering a set of round and octagonal quarter-dollar size and half-dollar size for $3. Although he referred to them as ‘California Gold Pieces,’ he did not call them coins, merely ‘keepsakes.’

“The tokens as well as the coins are usually of full weight. For this reason, most of the genuine pieces were remelted years ago because in their desire to give value received, these early coiners often had as much as 10 per cent excess gold in a coin, making it profitable to remelt into bullion. Therefore, even though made in large quantities, they are extremely scarce today.”

The question then becomes—nice sets, klaupo!—of what vintage is a particular token? Maybe more to the point, is it “of full weight?”

v.

I've barely scratched the surface of this fascinating area of the California fractional gold coins but I just want to pass on what I've learned so far. It appears a distinction is made between "cals" and "tokens". The "cals" are the fractional gold coins (full, half and quarter dollar) that have their denomination indicated on the coins. These were privately minted to fill the need at a time when the federal government didn't as yet have their official mint in California or the official mint didn't have sufficient capacity to make all the coins that were needed by the rapidly increasing population. These cals had a gold content sightly less than their indicated value (the difference went to the private minters) and they apparently were in circulation and used a legal tender. Coin experts today generally didvide the manufacture of these cals in three distinct periods, starting from 1852.

The "tokens" do not have a value indicated on the coin, and it doesn't appear to be clear whether they were ever put into circulation and used as a means of payment. Some of them possibly were when there weren't sufficient quantities of the more official cals around. Others were simply traded as souvenirs of the California gold rush. Some of them, naturally the really old ones (e.g. those from the 1870's and 1880's) and those well preserved, have high collector's value.

Among the cals one finds today, from any of the three periods mentioned above, there are genuine ones and fake ones. The latter of course have no value. Similarly, among the tokens one finds today, there are genuine ones from way back which have value, others which are fakes of the old valuable ones which have no value, and then there are recent designs (fantasies) that never existed in the 19th century that also have no value aside from the metal value of the gold that's in them.

Some of the cals and/or tokens made post-1864 were backdated to before 1864 because in 1864 private minting of coins was prohibited and the secret service did indeed clamp down on this illegal minting business. So a coin dated 1849 could well have been struck much later.

I found the exact coin that I posted my query about on Mike Locke's California Gold website
http://www.calgoldcoins.com , in his section on wreaths, and specifically on "Tokens that either defy categorization or that were cataloged before I started the reverse classification scheme". He shows that coins with this particular design come in two sizes which he designates as the quarter dollar and half dollar size. My coin is the half-dollar size (see his photo Misc9_RndH_1849Ind_N1_rev.jpg).

Specifics of this coin: Wreath on one side & Indian Head on the other, round, 9 stars, California Gold 1849, half dollar denomination. And he comments: "Value not established."

I find it curious that he would assign dollar denominations to these coins if they were never used as actual small change but only as souvenirs that you can hang around your neck.

In Locke's section on tokens, he gives plenty of estimates of the value of these tokens, and these generally range from $20-200.

This is a summary of what I've learned so far, and I'm probably wrong on some of these things.

Some good reading on California fractional gold coins, cals as well as tokens:
http://www.coinsite.com/content/article ... fornia.asp
http://www.coinsite.com/content/articles/fractional.asp

Ich will aus meiner Sicht heraus die Geschichte dieser Goldtoken in deutscher Sprache anbieten:

1. Phase:

1852-1856: Goldtoken werden hergestellt, um den akuten Bargeldmangel zubeheben. Alle Exemplare tragen einen Nominalwert, der tatsächliche Goldgehalt liegt darunter.

1866: Die Münzstätte in San Fransisco ist voll betriebsfähig. Der Bargeldmangel bessert sich, die Herstellung der Token wird eingestellt.

2. Phase

1859-1864: Für die Schmuckindustrie und als Souvenir werden die Token von Juwelieren erneut hergestellt, allerdings mit verringertem Goldgehalt.

1864: Ein Gesetz verbietet die Herstellung privater Goldstücke für den Zahlungsverkehr. Die Juweliere reagieren. Sie entfernen die Währungsangabe und datieren die Stücke auf die Zeit vor Inkrafttreten des Gesetzes zurück.
Das heißt, alle Token ohne Nominalwert gehören zur zweiten oder dritten Phase, unabhängig von der aufgeprägten Jahreszahl.

1883: Der Staat schreitet ein und unterbindet die weitere Herstellung.

3. Phsase:

1884-1923: Illegal wird von einer Handvoll Juweliere die Herstellung erneut aufgenommen, jetzt allerdings nur noch in 9-karätigem Gold und rückdatiert.


Bei Heritage Auctions Galleries findet sich der Satz:

"Any California Fractional gold piece that includes a bear in the design is a replica, and is worth only the value of the gold it contains, usually only a few dollars because of the coins' small sizes and low quality gold."

Also, alle Stücke mit einem Bär als Motiv sind Replikas mit nur dem Materialwert. Genau solche Bärenstücke werden von calgoldcoins angeboten, so dass ich diesem Anbieter nicht vertraue.

Zur Fälschungsgefahr ein Ratgeber bei ebay:

http://reviews.ebay.com/California-Frac ... 0008365088

Viele Grüße
Hermann

heku hat geschrieben:...1866: Die Münzstätte in San Fransisco ist voll betriebsfähig....

Dies ist eine true-Anweisung, aber etwas irreführend. Von 1866 hatte die San Francisco-Münzstätten U.S. gold für ein Dutzend Jahre (1854) und fractional Silber für mehr als einem Jahrzehnt (1855) Münzprägung worden.

Eine andere dachte, nur zum Spaß. Als integraler Bestandteil der Höhe des amerikanischen Verkehr Münzwesen zur Zeit, mexikanische fractional Silber hätte funktioniert seinen Weg in den Bereich in den ersten Jahren nach dem Goldrausch, wodurch ich frage mich, welche Auswirkungen–falls vorhanden– Washingtons 1857 Demonetization der ausländischen Münzwesen innerhalb der USA hatte auf die Lieferung von kleine Münzen in California (und indirekt, auf die Notwendigkeit für private fractional Gold, ob im Münze oder token Form).

v.

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This is a true statement, but a little misleading. By 1866 the San Francisco mint had been coining U.S. gold for a dozen years (1854), and fractional silver for more than a decade (1855).

One other thought, just for fun. As an integral part of the stock of American circulation coinage at the time, Mexican fractional silver would have worked its way into the area in the early years following the Gold Rush, which makes me wonder what effect—if any—Washington’s 1857 demonetization of foreign coinage within the U.S. had on the supply of small change in California (and indirectly, on the need for private fractional gold, whether in coin or token form).

v.

villa66 hat geschrieben:One other thought, just for fun. As an integral part of the stock of American circulation coinage at the time, Mexican fractional silver would have worked its way into the area in the early years following the Gold Rush, which makes me wonder what effect—if any—Washington’s 1857 demonetization of foreign coinage within the U.S. had on the supply of small change in California (and indirectly, on the need for private fractional gold, whether in coin or token form).

Ich weiß es nicht, ich vermute nur:

Während des Goldrausches waren die Preise astronomisch:

1 Ein - 1$
1 Kaffee - 5 $
1 Schüssel zum Goldwaschen - 15$
1 Paar Schuhe - 100$

Von 1850 bis 1860 hat sich die Bevölkerung verdreifacht. Auch nach dem Ende des Goldrausches dürften die Preise für Waren überdurchschnittlich hoch geblieben sein. Ich schätze, dass der Wegfall des ausländischen Silbers nur geringe Auswirkungen hatte, weil man nur wenig damit kaufen konnte.

Dazu passt, dass in der San Fransisco mint 1857 in der Hauptsache double eagles geprägt wurden, die anderen Münzsorten treten zahlenäßig deutlich zurück.

Das fractional gold ab 1859 ist spürbar besser erhalten als die Stücke von 1852-56. Ein tatsächlicher Bedarf für den Zahlungsverkehr scheint nicht vorhanden gewesen zu sein.

Viele Grüße
Hermann