Ricimer

[Tejas552]

Hier ist der Link zu einem Artikel über eine Münze mit Ricimer-Monogramm und zusätzlichem A. Der Autor versucht die Bedeutung des A aufzulösen. Ich fürchte, dass die Münze mit dem A im Monogramm eine moderne Fälschung ist. Münzen ähnliches Typs wurden in vergangenen Auktionen in grosser Zahl von Emporium verkauft.

https://www.academia.edu/27183110/The_R ... ditional_A

Gruss
Dirk

[odysseos]

Hier ist der Link zu einem Artikel über eine Münze mit Ricimer-Monogramm und zusätzlichem A. Der Autor versucht die Bedeutung des A aufzulösen. Ich fürchte, dass die Münze mit dem A im Monogramm eine moderne Fälschung ist. Münzen ähnliches Typs wurden in vergangenen Auktionen in grosser Zahl von Emporium verkauft.

https://www.academia.edu/27183110/The_R ... ditional_A

Gruss
Dirk

Hello, sorry for not writing German but I think you may understand my English much more easily! I wrote the academia.edu article. The type is in RIC X and I must allow that there are likely to be ancient examples seen by better experts than myself, whether or not my example is ancient. Based on your comment, I have now searched for Ricimer coins offered by Emporium Hamburg. I found the following search result about an old example re-sold by CNG: "CNG Triton XIV by Classical Numismatic Group, Inc. - issuu https://issuu.com/cngcoins/docs/cng_triton_xiv Nov 12, 2010 - Title: CNG Triton XIV, Author: Classical Numismatic Group, Inc., Name: ... With the deposition of Avitus in October 456, Majorian and Ricimer were ...... ($5000) Ex Emporium Hamburg 47 (23 May 2002), lot 1167; Holger Hede ..." I also looked at other Ricimer coins sold by Emporium more recently and they do not look like mine, but they do have different surfaces and styles from each other. Anyone including the best dealers can sell modern counterfeits by mistake. My Ricimer (3) coins were in a larger group that seemed to be unresearched, found together, and sold without identification by a reputable source. But I know that does not prove they are ancient, and I thank you for your note about offerings that may lead to doubts.

[Tejas552]

Hi Robert,

I am not at all certain that your coin is a forgery, but I have doubts because its fabric and appearance reminds a lot of a large number of small copper fakes sold by Emporium Hamburg. Please have a look at Emporium Auction 70, Nov. 2013:

https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auct ... gory=20108
The lot numbers 429 to 435 are all modern forgeries. The same is true for lots 413, 417 and 418 in the same auction.

Emporium has sold a lot more of these forgeries. However, some of the fakes have been withdrawn. Check out this auction 71:
https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auct ... gory=26504
Lots 446 to 455 are all fakes, which have been withdrawn from the auction. In fact many of these coins are fantasy fakes that should never have made it into an auction catalog. I wrote many times to Emporium they never responded directly, but only eventually withdrew some of the most rediculous coins.

Emporium 74
https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auct ... gory=46150
Lots 552 to 572 and 522 to 537 are all modern fakes (mostly withdrawn, but some sold)

Again, I am not 100% certain, but I think your coin with the unusual A in the Ricimer Monogram is quite likely a modern forgery from the same workshop as the Emporium forgeries above.

Best
Dirk

PS Emporium may have offered this large rediculous group of forgeries by mistake, but that is almost as damaging to the reputation as if they had offered them knowing that they were fakes.

[Tejas552]

In case more proof is needed that the Emporium coins are modern fakes:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2427150
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2735423
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2735424

They attributed these coins to the Gepidic king Thurisind. This shows that the cataloger was either completely incompetent or .....

Somebody bought this rediculous fake for EUR 390:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1261014

Best
Dirk

[odysseos]

I agree that the linked coin images are very strange and suspicious. No surprise if they are fakes. I am trying my best to avoid being defensive or optimistic about my own Ricimer coins, but I do not feel that there is much similarity between mine and those, considering both the workmanship and the surfaces as best I can judge from the photos. My own purchases were not from Emporium. Unfortunately you can only see my photos and not the surfaces in hand. But of course any "barbarous type" of coin (as I think applies to most if not all Ricimer bronzes I've seen) that was made in ancient or medieval times could be imitated very well in our own time, and I cannot be entirely certain of authenticity. Thank you very much for sharing the above links and for your ideas!

[Tejas552]

As I said, I am not certain and I don't want to convince you. In fact I posted the coin here to hear the opinion of others. Obviously, you have the benefit of being able to investigate your coin in hand. I am only judging on the basis of pictures.


However, if I may offer one final comparison:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1950258
I think the bust is similar to the bust on your coin. Observe the strange circle around the bust on this coin and on your coin, which I have never seen in this form on ancient originals.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2735414
Again, here is the circle on the obverse, which I think is not typical for originals.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3079600
Here the bust is somewhat similar to the bust on your coin. The strange letter "K" on the reverse is executed in thin strokes, which is similar to the Ricimer monogram on your coin, but dissimilar to genuine ancient coins.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2427098
The forger tried to produce a coin of Odovacer, but Emporium attributed this fake to Zenonis. The perl-circle on the reverse is similar to the perl-circle on your coin.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1426886
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1590188
Another complete fake, which I think reminds of your coin. The coin was sold by Emporium in 2012 and resold by NAC in 2013. So the less suspicious pieces do get a wider Distribution.

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1749128
This coin also shows the complete circle around the bust, which is also present on your coin and which I have never seen on an ancient coin of this type.

Also, Emporium is not the only seller of this type of fake. I have seen them offered by a range of auction houses. However, Emporium is the only one that offered even the most rediculous fantasy fakes.
I leave it at this. I would be interested to hear the opinion of others on this list. In particular I would be interested if others have seen these circles on similar coins or in general coins of similar style which they believe to be genuine. (I hope we can switch back to German at some Point)

Best
Dirk

[odysseos]

Hello again Dirk,
I truly appreciate your generosity with your time and effort to support the concern that we share. I agree, the point is not for either of us to convince the other, but to discover the truth.
From your most recent links, I do see a degree of bust similarity, but the variations are large and certainly similarities can be expected. Also, your links are to issues of different rulers and periods, and mint personnel, facilities, and locations vary.
It appears to me that your most frequent concern is presence of a circle around the bust on mine. I have searched but, with typically undersized flans, crude work, and poor preservation, I can seldom if ever determine if a circle was present on the obverse die for the Ricimer issues.
However, for rulers as at your links, I do see circular borders, for example on the following coins sold by CNG (probably genuine in most or all cases to me; what about to you?):
http://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=276085
http://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=256819
http://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=258101
http://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=131521
http://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=72525
In any case, fakes come in all varieties, sharing some features with genuine coins, and the presence of the circles on fakes does not mean to me that all coins with circles are fakes. I would like very much to see good images of more Ricimer-monogrammed coins, and most importantly some with the crossbar that forms the letter A. Those may differ from the type without the A, from being made by different people at a different place or time. I think that they are all likely to be barbarous or unofficial (and perhaps that is true for all Ricimer monogram coins), whatever that means when applied to the shakey Western Roman Empire as ruled by puppets.
Whether my Ricimer coins are genuinely ancient or not, they lead to study and learning (including from our discussions at this site), and I think that is their real value. They led me to investigate the A, though I could have done so without any examples in hand based on references such as RIC where it is listed as problematical.
By the way, since I found that Anthemius' daughter Alypia is believed to appear unnamed on an Eastern Roman coin probably (per RIC) issued in connection with her marriage to Ricimer, I have wondered if the A could be seen as a Western Roman counterpart with her A added to Ricimer's monogram. At this point, if the A is real and has meaning (even if to some "barbarian" die sinker), I think it is likely to be connected to Anthemius through either his daughter Alypia or his general Marcellinus; these three individuals could all be represented by the monogram with A!
I may even be fortunate enough to inspect the apparently unique coin (an RIC R5), since its Dumbarton Oaks home is quite close to me, and discuss the matter with the curator. Of course I will be revising the paper to reflect all newer information including the ideas that you have provided - so very kindly, even more since you have needed to write in English (excellent English!) to be sure that I understand.
Again, thank you!
Best regards,
Bob

[Tejas552]

Hi Bob,

As you mentioned earlier for a skilled forger these coins are probably not much of a challenge. In German we have the nice word "Vergesellschaftung", which means something like "association". The Emporium coin can be divided into three groups:

1. Obvious fantasy fakes
2. Extremely rare, but plausible coins
3. Common and plausible coins.

Groups 2 and 3 are hard to spot, given the poor condition of many of these coins and the crude nature of the images. However, if groups 2 and 3 are associated with group 1 (vergesellschaftet), one has to be suspicious, especially if they show similar styles and fabrics.

I don't know, but I guess the CNG coins are all genuine. Maybe I'm making too much of these circles . However, I still think that the circles on the CNG coins and the way how letters and busts are executed differ from the Emporium coins and from your Ricimer coin. One would probably have to see them side by side and in nature for a better judgement.

I would be very interested to hear the outcome of your discussions with the experts from Dumbarton Oaks.

Best
Dirk

[odysseos]

Dirk - I agree with your points. It has been claimed that the Ricimer monogram coins were minted at Rome and then Milan and other Italian mints, some during the reign of Libius, some during the interregnum, and others during the civil war against Anthemius. I also saw Spanish minting noted. I regret that I have not yet located any good images of "Ricimer plus A" monogrammed coins which would be important to support a determination. Meanwhile, I find some hope in the genuinely-ancient-looking surfaces of my pieces (probably not well conveyed in my photos) which I think would have required much more time and effort to simulate than the time to make fresh-surfaced fakes. It will be months until I can visit Dumbarton Oaks because I'll soon be doing extended on-site research in Italy, Sicily, Spain, and North Africa. Too bad I will not have time for Germany. I would like to suggest that, if you do not have a site on academia.edu, you consider obtaining one and following me there; that will ensure you are notified when I post revisions. Again, I sincerely thank you for all of your valuable help. - Bob

[odysseos]

PS I made an error in mentioning a possible Spanish mint. I should have written Gallic, possibly Narbonne, close to Spain but not in it.