Annullierung von Bronze (Kupfer/Zinn/Zink) prägt 1942

[Zaggy]

One more question....

I can find the orders now for the recall of the Copper 1 and 2 Rpf, Nickel 50Rpf and 1 RM, and Silver 2 RM (November 14 1939).... I CANT find an order for the 5RM!

Huehnerbla and KarlAntonMartini; would either of you two know if this order existed?


Danke

[petzlaff]

Hi Zaggy,

the Silver coins (2 and 5 Reichsmark) of the 3rd Reich were withdrawn due to June 20, 1948.

1936-1939 5 Reichspfennig - Aug, 31 1948
1936-1939 10 Reichspfennig - Mar, 31 1949
1935-1944 50 Reichspfennig - Mar, 31 1949
Zinc 1940-1946 1 Reichspfennig - Aug, 31 1948
Zinc 1940-1948 5 Reichspfennig - Aug, 31 1948
Zinc 1940-1948 10 Reichspfennig - Aug, 31 1949

The 1 to 50 Reichspfennig pieces were reduced to 1/10 of the the face value on June, 21 1948, so actiually only the 10 and 50 Reichspfennig coins circulated as 1 and 5 Pfennig concurrent with the new "Bank Deutscher Länder" emissions starting June 1948.

Regards
Stefan

[Zaggy]

Hi Petzlaff...

Two questions. First one short, second one longer...

1. What references are you quoting from? (I didnt know about the reduction in face value thing; thats interesting. I need to go read about that!)
2. The 2 and 5 Reichsmarks are very confusing!

Münzen & Papiergeld (6/2005) says exactly what you have said above, regarding the dates.

BUT Jaeger (1991) quotes a whole different set of dates (and references a series of Allied Military Government Orders that I cant find ), see thread http://www.numismatikforum.de/ftopic22467.html . Jaeger claims there was a regulation stating that all Silbermünzen was to be surrendered within 15 days.

Der Deutschen Münzen seit 1871 (Jaeger 1991) Seite 356

2RM und 5RM
Nach Artikel III des Gesetzes Nr. 53 der Alliierten Militärregierung vom 19. 9. 1944 waren alle Deutschen und ausländischen Silbermünzen innerhalb von 15 Tagen nach Inkrafttreten dieses Gesetzes abzuliefern. Es trat jeweils für die Teile des Deutschen Reichs in Kraft, die gerade besetzt worden waren. Danach waren die Münzen nunmehr abzuliefern; Im ganzen Deutschland; Proklamation Nr. 2 vom 20. 9. 1945, in Österreich: §7 des Währungsschutzgesetzes am 24. 12. 1947, im Saarland: Artikel 1 der Verordnung Nr. 21 bis 20. 1. 1946, in Großberlin: Befehl vom 9. 8. 1945: bis 25. 9. 1945.

Now I have one gentleman (who has been of GREAT help to me) telling me that he feels that Jaeger mis-translated the orders and used the date the order was written instead of the planned Demonetisation date. But I have another gentleman, who is researching the DDR Mints and Currency 1948-1991, telling me the dates Jaeger claims are fairly accurate.

See my problem? If you think Jaeger is wrong as well, PLEASE say so. (My first thought was that he was wrong)...

The fact is, Germany (And especially Berlin) was in utter chaos basically from the end of 1944 to 1948; and all i can find is lots of conflicting data... I'm leaning towards the Jaeger dates at the moment. Why? Jaegers dates correspond to information about Saarland and Austria. But I'm not 100% convinced yet, as Münzen & Papiergeld is talking about ONLY Germany.

Its all very confusing! The first dates I was using for my paper were the same dates you have posted above! And I'm really hoping you are right; makes everything so much simpler. Its just difficult to decide when you have equally valid proof for BOTH dates!

Now just to add a little more confusion, the Demonetisation of Reichssilbermünzen 2RM MAY have happened in 1940 (Reichsgesetzblatt I Seite. 234 – Verordnung über die Außerkersſetzung der Reichſilbermünzen im Nennbetrag von 2 Reichsmark vom 14. November 1939). The order was there, I just can't find any reference to confirm that the recall actually happened! And that makes me think, why not recall the 5RM as well? (unless the recall was for the Copper content of the 2RM)...

I have to go to bed; its 05:40am in the morning. I've been sitting up all night researching again!

Danke Petzlaff

[KarlAntonMartini]

Don' t mix two issues of these laws: one rules that the coins should be handed over to the authorities wheras the other ruled the question if they had the status of legal coinage. During the war many people hoarded the silver coins and from about 1947 the zinc coins were also hoarded because people expected the smaller coins wouldn't be devalued in the currency reform to come. - I 've noticed that you quote the german Verordnung with the "long s". The "long s" has no special meaning in the language, it s just a letter which was used only in fracture-type writing. Then the long s was used if the s occured in the centre of a word, the "final -s" was used if it occurred at the end of the word. If a word is composed from two words like "Reichssilbermünzen" the first s is regarded as the final s of Reichs (genitive of Reich) and the second is a long s. This has only esthetic reasons so if you write in an antiqua-type lettering there is only s for both fracture letters. Cheers, KarlAntonMartini

[Zaggy]

Cheers Karl... The Long-s was just a cut and paste from some reference docs (Not my typing)...

Yes, I think I'm looking at things a bit wrong...

So to make sure I understand, EVEN THOUGH an order had been given that all Silver coins are to be handed over in 1945, they were still legal currency in 1948.

The 1945 order to hand them in did NOT demonetise the coins, unlike the Third Reich, who Demonetised coins (for example the 1RM and 50Rpf) to 'encourage' people to hand them in.

I'm actually amazed at the quantities of these coins that were hoarded! But as you've said before, the people learned from WW1 and understood the material value of the coins.

Thanks KarlAntonMartini and Petzlaff. Sorry if I get confused with this stuff.