Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

1871-1945/48
Benutzeravatar
Togol
Beiträge: 7
Registriert: Mo 27.05.19 06:44
Wohnort: Bismarck-Archipel

Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Togol » Mo 27.05.19 08:47

Hello!

I am interested in learning about the 1894-1895 Neu Guinea Compagnie coins. I was hoping members of the Numismatik community here could recommend some books, websites, or other information sources on this topic (German-language sources are fine).

Particular interests include
  1. the diagnostic features that distinguish polierte platte and standard issue coins for each denomination
  2. details of the embossing / minting process
    1. embossing technology used at the Berlin mint in the 1890s
    2. differences in how polierte platte and standard issue coins were struck
    3. number of embossing dies used for the different denominations of neu guinea compagnie coins
  3. for what purpose were the polierte platte issues produced and the number minted for each denomination
I realise that some details might not specifically be available for the Neu Guinea Compagnie, and any insight on other coins minted around this time frame (1890s) would also be greatly appreciated.

It would also be interesting in hearing opinions on the diagnostic features that differentiate the polierte platte and standard issue coins from anyone with experience in handling these coins. Photo examples are always welcomed!

Many thanks in advance,
T

Benutzeravatar
Mynter
Beiträge: 1987
Registriert: Do 03.09.09 23:11
Wohnort: Huttaheiti, Finsterstes Barbaricum
Danksagung erhalten: 7 Mal

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Mynter » Mo 27.05.19 20:20

The standard catalogue of gerrman coins past 1871, containing minting figurens : https://www.battenberg-gietl.de/sammeln ... -seit-1871
Zuletzt geändert von Mynter am Mo 27.05.19 20:27, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
Grüsse, Mynter

Benutzeravatar
Mynter
Beiträge: 1987
Registriert: Do 03.09.09 23:11
Wohnort: Huttaheiti, Finsterstes Barbaricum
Danksagung erhalten: 7 Mal

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Mynter » Mo 27.05.19 20:25

Grüsse, Mynter

Benutzeravatar
Mynter
Beiträge: 1987
Registriert: Do 03.09.09 23:11
Wohnort: Huttaheiti, Finsterstes Barbaricum
Danksagung erhalten: 7 Mal

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Mynter » Di 28.05.19 16:10

Some years ago I read a report regarding the state of minting at the different german mints by the mintmaster of Dresden- Muldenhütten in 1905. The report was issued by the Museum ofHhistory in Hamburg :

Heft 9 (1991) 72 S. + 28 Tfn.

Arnold, Paul und Ulli: Münzstättenbesichtigungen der sächsischen Münz- und Hüttenmeister Gustav Julius Buschick und Theodor Choulant
Grüsse, Mynter

Benutzeravatar
Togol
Beiträge: 7
Registriert: Mo 27.05.19 06:44
Wohnort: Bismarck-Archipel

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Togol » Mi 29.05.19 07:02

Mynter – many thanks for the suggested references.
____

Re: PP Minting Figures

I had a second look at my copy of Jaeger – Die deutschen Münzen seit 1871 (17th edition).

Jaeger offers good precision for minting figures of the Neu Guinea Compagnie coins. However, there is no specific mention of PP minting figures for these coins.

The Introduction section (under “Bewertungen“ S. 25) makes the disclaimer that minting figures are generally not known for PP coins except for the years when statements were made in the official documents being studied.

That said, rough guidelines seem to be provided (under “Herstellungs- und Erhaltungsmerkmale” S. 23) for the various centres of manufacture. Production of PP coins appeared to range from 1 – 100 pieces when produced, with (for the Berlin Mint at least) a greater number of gold and silver coins being struck as PP, than coins of nickel or bronze.

When looking at PP minting figures for other colony coins (e.g. Deutsch Ostafrika), figures are given for some denominations produced at the Berlin Mint between 1904 and 1906. The figure range is 15 – 150 pieces and varies based on coin denomination and year. The minting figures of standard coins appear to be a poor indicator of figures for PP coins. As a coin with over 3 million pieces (J-716 1 Heller) has only 15 PP pieces, while for the same year a coin with 300.000 pieces (J-720 ¼ Rupie) has 118 PP pieces.

On the basis of the information in Jaeger, this leaves us with an estimated PP minting figure of 1-150 pieces for each Neu Guinea coin type. With the possibility of a lower estimate range for the bronze coinage (1, 2, 10 Pfennig).

I’m certain the accuracy of this estimate can be improved with information obtained from:
  • Auction House results (there is definitely more than 1 PP piece for each Neu Guinea coin type).
  • Third Party Grading (TPG) certification counts
  • Unofficial documents not considered in Jaeger (Neu Guinea Compagnie records?)
  • How PP pieces were sold or given away (individually, set, public sales, given to company shareholders?)
I will try to keep pursing this topic as additional information sources are identified. Let me know if this seems logical thus far.

Cheers
T

Benutzeravatar
KarlAntonMartini
Moderator
Beiträge: 6557
Registriert: Fr 26.04.02 15:13
Wohnort: Dresden
Hat sich bedankt: 1 Mal
Danksagung erhalten: 2 Mal

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von KarlAntonMartini » Mi 29.05.19 09:42

Togol, Maybe this report about records and other sources regarding the New Guinea Colony is helpful: http://www.neueste.uni-bayreuth.de/VerwNeuguinIV.htm
Regards, KarlAntonMartini
Tokens forever!

Benutzeravatar
Mynter
Beiträge: 1987
Registriert: Do 03.09.09 23:11
Wohnort: Huttaheiti, Finsterstes Barbaricum
Danksagung erhalten: 7 Mal

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Mynter » Mi 29.05.19 10:51

Togol hat geschrieben:Hello!

I am interested in learning about the 1894-1895 Neu Guinea Compagnie coins. I was hoping members of the Numismatik community here could recommend some books, websites, or other information sources on this topic (German-language sources are fine).

Particular interests include
  1. the diagnostic features that distinguish polierte platte and standard issue coins for each denomination
  2. differences in how polierte platte and standard issue coins were struck
  3. number of embossing dies used for the different denominations of neu guinea compagnie coins
[*] for what purpose were the polierte platte issues produced and the number minted for each denomination [/list]

I realise that some details might not specifically be available for the Neu Guinea Compagnie, and any insight on other coins minted around this time frame (1890s) would also be greatly appreciated.

It would also be interesting in hearing opinions on the diagnostic features that differentiate the polierte platte and standard issue coins from anyone with experience in handling these coins. Photo examples are always welcomed!

Many thanks in advance,
T
1.Regarding minting figures for proof- coins in Jaeger : Jaeger himself said once that he only believed in information wich he had doublechecked with his own eyes. This probally explaines why the minting figures for proof- coins are only partially available. I believe one may say that a figure not in the Jaeger- catalogue simply was not found by him. I do not have the impression that editors after Jaeger put much energy in archive- digging,so the state of information offered today shold be almost the same as in 1975.
2. The diagnostic criteria for discriminating between the Guinea- coins in proof and for business should be the same as for the coins mintend for circulation in Germany. The New Guinea- coins where not minted as showpieces but from the need to stop an unwanted backflow of currency from the Guinea- colony to the Motherland. Therefor it is unlikely that the New Guinea coins where produced with greater care than the usual coins.
3. This probally means that an equal number of dies was needed to produce the New- Guinea- coins as for the german denominations.
4. Information about how long a die lasted is sparse. According to Schlösser who was the last guardain at the Hannover- mint Berlin( A) and Hannover ( B )in 1878 produced with one die:
A /B

20 M 45300/ 25340

10 M 39200/ 20330

5 M (Ag) 47000/ 26700

2 M 61300 /36350

1 M 54750 /42460

50 Pf 54200/44200

2Pf 34400/ 22400

1 Pf 39300 / 26000

Looking at theese figures the New- Guinea- Fiver could very well have been struck with only one pair of dies.

But how did Berlin cope with the " cartwheel "- 10 - pfennig, and where did they get the planchets from ? Two questions wich probably never will be answered.
Zuletzt geändert von Mynter am Mi 29.05.19 11:21, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
Grüsse, Mynter

Benutzeravatar
Mynter
Beiträge: 1987
Registriert: Do 03.09.09 23:11
Wohnort: Huttaheiti, Finsterstes Barbaricum
Danksagung erhalten: 7 Mal

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Mynter » Mi 29.05.19 11:12

Here J 108 in proof and as business- strike:
J 108 PP Av – Kopi.JPG
J 108 PP Re – Kopi.JPG
J 108 Av – Kopi.JPG
J 108 Re – Kopi.JPG
Grüsse, Mynter

Benutzeravatar
Mynter
Beiträge: 1987
Registriert: Do 03.09.09 23:11
Wohnort: Huttaheiti, Finsterstes Barbaricum
Danksagung erhalten: 7 Mal

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Mynter » Mi 29.05.19 18:51

Togol hat geschrieben:
[*]How PP pieces were sold or given away (individually, set, public sales, given to company shareholders?)[/list]
Generaly only very little is known about the distribution of coins to collectors in this period.
It apears that Berlin struck proofs on regular bases, hence the scoures wich indicate a minting of 100- 300 specimens in proof a year. But where the 100- 300 proofs struck on demand or just knowing that they would meet a demand in any case ?
According to Alexander Kummer, the premium for a proof was 50 pfennig regardless of the denomination and the coins could be bought at the mint directly.
Interesting though, Kurt Jaeger told that when he as a young man after the reform of 1923 visited the Stuttgart- Mint , he would be able to purchase proofs at exactly the same price. Being a keen collector he until then did not know that something like proof- coins even existed.
The only coin- issues directly distributed to a selected circle where the Hessen 1904- commemorativs and the 1915- Mansfeld- 3- Mark. The bulk of the Hessen- coins went to members of the civil service and the lutheran clergy in the State of Hessen, while a great deal of the Mansfeld- coins where sent to prussian solders from the dirstrict of Mansfeld.
Perhaps this allows us the following conclusions on behalf of the New- Guinea- coins:
MInted at a mint with upheld a frequent and rather high production of proof- coins during the entire Empire, and in proof sold with a low premium, the coins would have been available for the collectors market in general and it is rather likely than unlikely that the minting figures where the same as for other coin- issues.
In the standard numismatist literature nothing is known about if they where distributed to certain recipients, but the example of two later coin-issues does not leave that unthinkable.
Grüsse, Mynter

Benutzeravatar
Togol
Beiträge: 7
Registriert: Mo 27.05.19 06:44
Wohnort: Bismarck-Archipel

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Togol » Do 30.05.19 08:20

Togol hat geschrieben:How PP pieces were sold or given away (individually, set, public sales, given to company shareholders?)
The reason for my interest in method of sale is that two secondary sources in the English-literature make reference to at least a portion of the Neu Guinea Compagnie coins being issued in sets.

Krause’s “Standard Catalog of World Coins 1801-1900” lists officially issued proof sets as designated by the issuing authority (according to the Introduction). Under the New Guinea section, a 1894 proof set is listed that includes seven coins: the copper and silver issues (excluding the gold 10 and 20 mark).

William Mira’s book “From Cowrie to Kina” (1986) has a relatively short section on the Neu Guinea Compagnie that makes specific reference to presentation sets: “As well as the coins for general circulation in the company’s domains, special presentation sets were produced. These were housed in red cases with a gold embossed German Eagle on the lid" (p. 52). Whether “special presentation sets” refers to PP coins is unclear.

I have not yet been able to confirm either of these claims by identifying the primary source material. And not everything in the English-literature on the Neu Guinea Compagnie coins can be taken as fact… I’ve seen the bird-of-paradise effigy labelled as everything from “Pheasant” to “Eagle”!

Also, if PP coins were sold in sets, there would be the expectation that a boxed set (as described by Mira) might appear at public auction. Something I’ve never come across. Rather, in the 40 years following mintage (<1934), sale records are mainly of individual coins (mostly 5, 10, and 20 marks), sets of the three copper coins, or sets of the four silver coins.

With this limited information, I’d say Mynter’s conclusion is a fair assumption. I could rationalise special presentation sets being presented to the Board of Directors, but not going beyond these recipients. If we rule out PP sets as the means of sale, there is a possibility that the quantity of PP coins stamped could differ greatly between denominations (as seen with the East Africa coinage).

Benutzeravatar
Togol
Beiträge: 7
Registriert: Mo 27.05.19 06:44
Wohnort: Bismarck-Archipel

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Togol » Do 30.05.19 08:45

KarlAntonMartini hat geschrieben:Togol, Maybe this report about records and other sources regarding the New Guinea Colony is helpful: http://www.neueste.uni-bayreuth.de/VerwNeuguinIV.htm
While it is distressing to learn the archive of the Neu Guinea Compagnie is considered lost, there is some hope here as well. It looks like the remaining German provincial files are available for purchase from the Australian National Archives.

I have searched through the Nachrichten uber Kaiser Wilhelms Land und den Bismarck-Archipel and the German New Guinea The Annual Reports 1886-1913 but mentions of minting the Neu Guinea coins are restricted to details from the relevant Ordinance of 1894.

I look forward to exploring the additional literature identified in the link. Cheers

Benutzeravatar
Mynter
Beiträge: 1987
Registriert: Do 03.09.09 23:11
Wohnort: Huttaheiti, Finsterstes Barbaricum
Danksagung erhalten: 7 Mal

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Mynter » Do 30.05.19 11:37

Krauses and Miras remarks about proofsets sound most exciting. Imagine, such a set in an auction. The audience would go wild !
I agree, if such sets really should exist, they should apear on the market sooner or later.
Since I started severe collecting, I twice saw real rarities suddenly popping up. The first was the famous Hamburg 20- Mark of 1908 wich was minted in ony 14 pieces for the members of the Reichsbank- board. In 2011 Künker coins had one at auction, the ony speciemen available on the market, the other one still known of is in the collection of the Bundesbank.
The other one was this set of 1913. Never seen before, never seen since and not mentioned anywhere:
P1090557 – Kopi.JPG
P1090556 – Kopi.JPG
I have two other coin- set from that time.The Friedrich- set appeared 4 times during the last ten years, the Luitpold- set in varoius coulors is rather common :

http://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic ... en#p482254

http://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic ... ly#p462166

All three sets have in common that they where issued by private actors, none of them is official. On that bases , I would say that the existence of a New- Guinea- set is not impossible . Such a set would probably have been produced on private initiative, perhaps by the Company itself and the number of sets could very well reflect the number of people with influence in the Company.

A most thrilling thought !
Zuletzt geändert von Mynter am Do 30.05.19 15:12, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.
Grüsse, Mynter

Benutzeravatar
Togol
Beiträge: 7
Registriert: Mo 27.05.19 06:44
Wohnort: Bismarck-Archipel

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Togol » Do 30.05.19 14:48

Mynter hat geschrieben:I would say that the existence of a New- Guinea- set is not impossible
A thrilling thought, indeed! The knowledge of similar sets certainly adds credence to the possibility of a Neu Guinea set. Stunning presentation… I can only dream of their appearance some day!
Mynter hat geschrieben: Looking at these figures the New- Guinea- Fiver could very well have been struck with only one pair of dies.
Based on the mintage figures for the silver and gold Neu Guinea coins and the estimate life of the dies, I would agree it seems reasonable that only a single set of dies were used for each type.

The use of a single die for both PP and business strikes would eliminate the possibility of using unique die imperfections transmitted to the coin surface as a way to confirm possible PP coins (compared to if a die was used only for PP coins). Any die imperfections observed should be common to both PP and business strikes.

But at what point in the die's life were the PP coins struck? At this time, were PP coins typically first off the press?

Benutzeravatar
Mynter
Beiträge: 1987
Registriert: Do 03.09.09 23:11
Wohnort: Huttaheiti, Finsterstes Barbaricum
Danksagung erhalten: 7 Mal

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Mynter » Do 30.05.19 19:27

Togol hat geschrieben: But at what point in the die's life were the PP coins struck? At this time, were PP coins typically first off the press?
Again, very little information is known, preserved or availlable. Sometimes I think collectors of US- coins are lucky, being able to lean on their Red Books .
Unfortunately I have no information about at wich stage of the mintingprocess proofcoins where produced, but I have the impression that coins in proof for collectors where struck with dies extrapolished for the task, while business- strikes where struck with usually prepared dies.
But proofdies would probably be used for business- strikes when the proofs where done. I have a 3- mark from Bavaria where the revers is struck with a proof- die, while the advers is from a matted die.
I do not think that the proof- effect would have vanished entirely in the minting- process, I believe at least a faint echo of the proof- effect would have been visible even later on in the mintingprocess.
If the Berlin Mint should have chosen a different aproach for the New Guinea- coins, I dare say every 5 Mark should have a prooflike look.
Grüsse, Mynter

Benutzeravatar
Togol
Beiträge: 7
Registriert: Mo 27.05.19 06:44
Wohnort: Bismarck-Archipel

Re: Neu Guinea Compagnie coins

Beitrag von Togol » Fr 31.05.19 02:23

Okay, now to clarify the diagnostic criteria for PP coins of the period – and relate to the minting process shared previously:
Mynter hat geschrieben:How the minting was done : http://www.retrobibliothek.de/retrobib/ ... ?id=111608
  1. mirror fields - regular planchets (after pickling to remove oxides, washing, and drying) were hand selected and polished (with chemical?). The dies are suspected to have also been extra-polished for the task.
  2. fully-formed (squared) and sharp rims - the stamping was done multiple times? And/or at greater force?
  3. fully-formed or sharp edge reeding (straight notches) - stamping was done multiple times within a pre-ring (collar)? And/or at greater force?
  4. greater detail in areas of relief (portrait, letters, dots) - stamping was done multiple times? And/or at greater force?
(Let me know if I've missed some criteria)

The J-108 example shared previously in this thread really portrays these differences nicely!

What’s caught my attention is the possibility that “the proof-effect” might carry over to business strikes. I’m guessing the most likely “proof-effect” to carry over would be the mirror fields, the extra-polished dies being then used to stamp regular planchets.

Would such coins be accounted for with the German grading term Erstabschlag? Or is Spiegelglanz more appropriate here?

Additionally, I’d assume even with the minting of business strikes the dies would require routine polishing? Could we then assume the business strikes made following die maintenance would also result in a “proof-effect”?

  • Vergleichbare Themen
    Antworten
    Zugriffe
    Letzter Beitrag

Wer ist online?

Mitglieder in diesem Forum: 0 Mitglieder und 3 Gäste