1844a French 5-franc

[villa66]

This 1844a 5-franc piece—from the Paris mint—was then and for several decades more still often called an “écu,” after the old silver coin which they resembled in size and metal.

The travels of the old Spanish-American and Mexican “dollars” are so interwoven with American coinage history—and their stories so embedded in our local hobby—that sometimes it’s too easy for Americans to forget how widely these French 5-franc pieces travelled.

But I remember reading—as just one destination among many—how popular they were in Madagascar, circulating there many years before the island became a French colony, and often (as was the case for so many of their large silver contemporaries), being cut up for use as fractional coinage there.

And travelling back to the United States for a second, as so many of these big French 5-franc pieces did—they were legal tender in the U.S. as well, and would remain so until 1857.

v.

[Firenze]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge...

To me that type of coin is somewhat special. More than 10 years ago, when I was a kid, I bought one of these on a coin fair for about 15 € or so. However, for many years it remained the oldest silver coin in my collection.

It's funny though, how people often refer to former denominations because coins are similar in size or weight. I always realise that when browsing on ebay .com and .uk and many silver coins are referred to as crowns, although they actually are something totally different.

[villa66]

A fun reply to read. It's always fun to hear a fellow collector talk about his or her early acquisitions, and you're right, it is funny how often the old word usages persist. I always think of "penny," which the Americans haven't had--technically, anyway--since colonial times, but which has been popularly used as a synonym for "cent" since the earliest days of U.S. coinage.

v.

[sigistenz]

The travels of the old Spanish-American and Mexican “dollars” are so interwoven with American coinage history—and their stories so embedded in our local hobby—that sometimes it’s too easy for Americans to forget how widely these French 5-franc pieces travelled.
v.

villa, as I told you earlier, you are a great contributor to this forum. I knew that Spanish and Mexican "dollars" were common in the early US, but I did not know that French silver circulated there as well. Was the 5 francs equal to a $? Were the Spanish and Mexican?
Thank you again for this interesting sidelight.
Sigi

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[Afrasi]

But I remember reading—as just one destination among many—how popular they were in Madagascar, circulating there many years before the island became a French colony, and often (as was the case for so many of their large silver contemporaries), being cut up for use as fractional coinage there.

Here are some of those cut pieces:

Venty

Lasitelo

Sikajy

Lasiroa

Roavoamena

[Afrasi]

two more:

Kirobo

Iraimbilanja

[sigistenz]

I remember having seen such in some coin auction a few years ago
With no marks on them - is there a way to tell true pieces from imitations?
Sigi

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[Afrasi]

There is no way to proove them being genuine. So Lecompte refuses them listing in his catalogue. My source of these pieces is known to me. He is actually living in Madagascar and I trust him ... So I hope they are "originals"!

[villa66]

Thanks, Afrasi; a most interesting group of cut 5-franc pieces. Was at first mindful of something I read long ago that George Washington was supposed to have said—something to the effect that when receiving in change privately-cut fractional coin during his travels around the country, it too often seemed that folks thought there might be five quarters in a dollar.

But the obvious finally occurred to me—here we are talking about cutting up 5-franc pieces. Anyway, thanks again for the pictures.

v.

[villa66]

...I knew that Spanish and Mexican "dollars" were common in the early US, but I did not know that French silver circulated there as well. Was the 5 francs equal to a $? Were the Spanish and Mexican?
.

Thanks Sigi. I like posting here because when there’s a reply, it very often comes with the next question, the one I would have asked myself . So…

In 1834 Congress made several large foreign silver coins—Central and South American mostly, but the French 5-franc too—legal tender within the U.S. and set their nominal circulation values.

The large Central and South American silver “dollars” were to be valued at US$1.00 each, and the French 5-franc pieces were to pass at 93½ cents. Which makes sense, because in decent condition, the silver “dollars” of direct Spanish descent contained slightly more silver than did the American silver dollar—while the French 5-franc (25 grams, .900 fine) contained .0935 of the silver in the American coin (26.73 grams, .900 fine), or would, when the U.S. resumed production of its silver dollar.

For the sake of accuracy I note that the Spanish-American and the Mexican “dollars” sometimes passed at a slight premium—in part because of their slightly greater silver content, but also because they were of great utility than the American dollar in international trade. (And this of course remained true for many years after foreign coins lost their legal tender status within the United States.)

v.

[sigistenz]

The large Central and South American silver “dollars” were to be valued at US$1.00 each, and the French 5-franc pieces were to pass at 93½ cents. Which makes sense, because in decent condition, the silver “dollars” of direct Spanish descent contained slightly more silver than did the American silver dollar—while the French 5-franc (25 grams, .900 fine) contained .0935 of the silver in the American coin (26.73 grams, .900 fine), or would, when the U.S. resumed production of its silver dollar.
v.

Thank you for this. Dealing with units of 93½ cents and its multiples or fractions looks pretty cumbersome in pre calculator times...
There must have been quite some cheating...
Sigi

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[villa66]

Cumbersome and not just a little crazy. Of course it had been worse at the beginning, trying to weld together 13 different state currencies and etc., etc., into a single, politically-unified whole. After a predictably shaky start, things were finally calming down by the late 1840s--but then the gold strikes threw the gold/silver ratio out of whack and American silver mostly disappeared from circulation. Most of what remained in circulation were the tiny 3-cent coins and worn foreign silver.

The Americans adopted the British solution of 1816, and adopted a token silver coinage in 1853. Things improved again, and as above, the U.S. was finally able to risk weaning itself from foreign coinage beginning in 1857. (Another development in the 1857 revamp was the elimination of the half-cent coin--which, although there are additional reasons for its disappearance, I now know that the half-cent was then no longer technically required to address the $0.935-cent legal tender value of the French 5-franc coin--thanks!)

The deadline for the retirement of foreign silver was 1859, and--having weathered the Panic of 1857--the American monetary system was again finally beginning to round into shape.

And then in 1861 the Civil War broke out. The monetary system descended into chaos. Not for about a decade after the end of the war--1876, more or less--did American coinage return to anything like its brief prewar health.

So the U.S. declares its independence in 1776, wins it in 1783, formally begins knitting its 13 colonial coinages into a unified decimal coinage in 1792, and when is all that finally accomplished? My own answer is "about 1876, just in time for the country's centennial celebrations."

That's a lot of--exactly as you put it, Sigi--"cumbersome," with many decades worth of chances for "cheating."

v.