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EILMELDUNG RECHTSGUTACHTEN #Kulturgutschutzgesetz
http://muenzenwoche.de/de/News/4?&id=35 ... 30.07.2015 …
@solms @c_lindner @ntvde @welt @faznet @tagesspiegel
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Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
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stampsdealer
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Chandragupta
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Re: Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
Mal einen Hinweis am Rande:
Bitte den wirklich (trotz manch noch unsauberer Formulierungen und diverser Schreibfehlerchen) höchst lesenswerten Artikel von Herrn Walser wie folgt verlinken:
http://muenzenwoche.de/de/News/4?&id=3566
(also ohne die Referrer-Angabe am Ende)
Und weil wir gerade beim Thema "Münzzeitschriften" sind. Die Münzenwoche hat das Thema sofort aufgegriffen. Prima! Ich weiß das zu würdigen. Aber es gibt ja noch andere Journale: Money Trend, Münzen & Sammeln, MünzenRevue. Schlafen die alle?! Guten Morgen, liebe Redakteure! (Aber wie ich schon oben im Thread schrieb: Das haben "die" auch "prima getimed" mit der Sommerpausen-Sauregurken-Zeit...)
Bitte den wirklich (trotz manch noch unsauberer Formulierungen und diverser Schreibfehlerchen) höchst lesenswerten Artikel von Herrn Walser wie folgt verlinken:
http://muenzenwoche.de/de/News/4?&id=3566
(also ohne die Referrer-Angabe am Ende)
Und weil wir gerade beim Thema "Münzzeitschriften" sind. Die Münzenwoche hat das Thema sofort aufgegriffen. Prima! Ich weiß das zu würdigen. Aber es gibt ja noch andere Journale: Money Trend, Münzen & Sammeln, MünzenRevue. Schlafen die alle?! Guten Morgen, liebe Redakteure! (Aber wie ich schon oben im Thread schrieb: Das haben "die" auch "prima getimed" mit der Sommerpausen-Sauregurken-Zeit...)
Zuletzt geändert von Chandragupta am Fr 31.07.15 09:04, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
Numismatische Grüße,
Euer Chandra
Euer Chandra
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stampsdealer
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Re: Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
Dank für den Hinweis. Ich habe meine Vorlagen korrigiert.
Gruß
Jürgen
PS.: Aufgrund des Fragelimits bei Abgeordnetenwatch ist auch noch keine Frage zu diesem Rechtsgutachten dort eingegangen, also konnte die Linkschreibweise rechtzeitig geändert werden.
Gruß
Jürgen
PS.: Aufgrund des Fragelimits bei Abgeordnetenwatch ist auch noch keine Frage zu diesem Rechtsgutachten dort eingegangen, also konnte die Linkschreibweise rechtzeitig geändert werden.
Zuletzt geändert von stampsdealer am Fr 31.07.15 09:09, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
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raeticus
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Re: Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
Hier eine Erklärung der Gesetzesnovelle auf einem Englischen Forum (in English 
Dear List,
many good questions asked by many of you. Let me take the time to try to answer at least some. Please note that coins are affected on two dimensions: 1) as they are potential archaeological objects (with thus no lower value cutoff and a > 100 year requirement and 2) through numismatic collections above 50000€:
BACKGROUND OF THE DRAFT:
1) the draft of the new legislation was promised by the cultural minister to be posted on her website multiple times but was only given as a file.
That file (in German) is available to some including the German press, but you cannot find it on the web. A previous version with 100 pages of commentaries to the fellow ministers of the German government by the author had also leaked about 2 weeks before. Not much difference between the two drafts except in the National Cultural Heritage section they took out a clause that would have allowed searching private homes for cultural objects of National importance.
We need to understand that it is a document in the works, the final proposal will be available after endorsement by Merkel's cabinet in 3-4 weeks. Also some practical aspects are not part of the draft law but will be issued later in so called "Rechtsbestimmungen" (also called "Ermächtigungsverordnungen") which are in layman terms "sub-laws", not under control of Parliament but issued by the minister directly, a somewhat strange non-democratic feature of German law, but as I was told not uncommon. For example the exact value and age boundaries per cultural object category are going to be in these.
THE LAW AND ITS MECHANICS:
2) The law covers multiple aspects which makes it complex:
A) Protection of German National culture;
B) Import and Export permits also within the European Union;
C) Collector and Dealer obligations;
D) Return of other countries cultural heritage illegally in Germany
E) Prevention of Illegal excavations in Germany
A) GERMAN NATIONAL CULTURAL HERITAGE:
The press mainly covers A), where the typical cultural category reported on is paintings, and indeed it seems the age would be 70 years and above a value of 300.000 (stated by the minister, such detail is not in the draft but would be in the Rechtsverordnung. This has major negative consequences for collectors as they will be cut off from the world market in case they ever want to sell their object, as export from Germany for such objects is forbidden. If one moves inbetween German states the object has to be reported to the new state, and objects must not be damaged or changed (penalties are listed for noncompliance).
B) IMPORT AND EXPORT PERMITS (for NON HERITAGE OBJECTS):
This is completely new. So far only an export license to outside of the EU was needed (issued by the last EU country the object left the EU common market from). Under the old law there was free trade within the European Union from a German standpoint.
COUNTRY OF ORIGIN CONCEPT:
Main new concept of the new law is that - besides now requiring many 100.000 additional permits without staff being available to execute it - the law introduces the concept that to be legally allowed to enter Germany the object needs an 'Exit' permit of the "country of origin". NOT the trade country or the last country it was collected, but the country of origin, whatever that may be. Example Roman objects - What is it ? Example a Picasso, is it Spanish ? Is it French ? Is it Swiss as the last collector for 50 years was Swiss ? Not English despite the dealer it was bought from was in London.
If no adequate documentation is given at entry the object can be confiscated straight away.
Dito for export from Germany to any other country.
VALUE AND AGE LIMITS:
The value cut off for example for archaeological objects above 100 years of age is expected to be from value zero (ie regardless of value), and coins as potentially archaeological objects are affected also. For example for old-timer cars the age limit is 75 years with a value of 50.000€. Drawings have a value limit of 15.000€. Fossils are also included, stamps, books, manuscripts, antique furniture, etc. All with different value and age cutoffs.
TREATY RELATED AGE CUTOFFs:
In addition there are time cutoffs for the need of this import permit INTO Germany that are linked to certain treaty dates: For EU countries the import permit requirement relate to objects if they have not been proven to have left their country of origin before 31. Dec 1992, and for UNESCO signatories before 26. April 2007. No prove means they are assumed to have left later.
No such timing limits for the export licence to go OUTSIDE of Germany, the criteria for export are still unclear.
C) OBLIGATIONS BEFORE TRADING CULTURAL OBJECTS ('Sorgfaltspflichten bei in Verkehrbringen')
ANYBODY:
Any collector or dealer has to prove before selling or trading a cultural object that the object was not lost, stolen, illegally imported or illegally excavated. If an object was bought with cash money, or the price seemed too low, or no expert was present, it is assumed doubtful. If the object is still traded, prison up to 3 years is foreseen, more for multiple offenses or gang related activities. It is open HOW one could prove exclusion of the above, especially retrospectively. Bureaucracy will be huge, as this is needed for every cultural object as there is no lower value limit. A beer mug on a flea market sold by a part-time dealer would be already affected
DEALERS ('gewerblich' includes by German law private individuals who sell objects multiple times over a year'):
Besides the obligation for anybody above, dealers have in addition to keep record of the name and address of the seller to them, and the buyer from them incl the prices, and document the identity of the object incl an image. they have to store this for 30 years, and any interested buyer can request the documentation incl the identities of previous owners of the object. If not done the dealer faces up to 3-5 years prison and up to 100.000 Euros penalty (10 years if a gang activity, ie multiple dealers acting together in a partnership)
IF the object is an archaeological object and valued above 100Euros the dealer has to do in addition extensive provenance searches outlined in the draft.
IF the object is other than archaeological the limit is 2500Euros for this activity.
IF the archaeological object has been in the family, proven for more than 20 years, the limit is not 100Euros but also 2500 Euros.
IF the object is a potential object from Syria or Iraq as identified by ICOM red lists (for example the Syrian list flags all Roman coins with the letters SC), there is no lower limit, any objects needs a provenance search.
D) REPATRIATION TO COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN:
Essentially the law requires the collector to prove the object has left the country of origin before 31.Dec 1992 for EU members or 26.April 2007 for UNESCO signatories to be safe from requests. All other objects can be requested by a country making a claim, under German courts, but using the cultural protection law of that country of origin (ie multiple foreign laws become the main driver within Germany). The new draft also outlines what has to happen when multiple foreign countries claim the same object (they have to come to an agreement amongst each other)
E) ILLEGAL EXACAVATIONS WITHIN GERMANY:
Up to 3 years of prison for illegal excavations within Germany (so far this was not seen as a crime that would trigger prison sentences)
DISCLAIMER: NOTE PLEASE I AM NOT A LAWYER, THERE MAY BE MISINTERPRETATIONS, THE DRAFT IS NOT THE FINAL LAW, AND SOME DETAILS ARE UNKNOWN UNTIL THE 'RECHTSVERORDNUNGEN' ARE ISSUED
Dear List,
many good questions asked by many of you. Let me take the time to try to answer at least some. Please note that coins are affected on two dimensions: 1) as they are potential archaeological objects (with thus no lower value cutoff and a > 100 year requirement and 2) through numismatic collections above 50000€:
BACKGROUND OF THE DRAFT:
1) the draft of the new legislation was promised by the cultural minister to be posted on her website multiple times but was only given as a file.
That file (in German) is available to some including the German press, but you cannot find it on the web. A previous version with 100 pages of commentaries to the fellow ministers of the German government by the author had also leaked about 2 weeks before. Not much difference between the two drafts except in the National Cultural Heritage section they took out a clause that would have allowed searching private homes for cultural objects of National importance.
We need to understand that it is a document in the works, the final proposal will be available after endorsement by Merkel's cabinet in 3-4 weeks. Also some practical aspects are not part of the draft law but will be issued later in so called "Rechtsbestimmungen" (also called "Ermächtigungsverordnungen") which are in layman terms "sub-laws", not under control of Parliament but issued by the minister directly, a somewhat strange non-democratic feature of German law, but as I was told not uncommon. For example the exact value and age boundaries per cultural object category are going to be in these.
THE LAW AND ITS MECHANICS:
2) The law covers multiple aspects which makes it complex:
A) Protection of German National culture;
B) Import and Export permits also within the European Union;
C) Collector and Dealer obligations;
D) Return of other countries cultural heritage illegally in Germany
E) Prevention of Illegal excavations in Germany
A) GERMAN NATIONAL CULTURAL HERITAGE:
The press mainly covers A), where the typical cultural category reported on is paintings, and indeed it seems the age would be 70 years and above a value of 300.000 (stated by the minister, such detail is not in the draft but would be in the Rechtsverordnung. This has major negative consequences for collectors as they will be cut off from the world market in case they ever want to sell their object, as export from Germany for such objects is forbidden. If one moves inbetween German states the object has to be reported to the new state, and objects must not be damaged or changed (penalties are listed for noncompliance).
B) IMPORT AND EXPORT PERMITS (for NON HERITAGE OBJECTS):
This is completely new. So far only an export license to outside of the EU was needed (issued by the last EU country the object left the EU common market from). Under the old law there was free trade within the European Union from a German standpoint.
COUNTRY OF ORIGIN CONCEPT:
Main new concept of the new law is that - besides now requiring many 100.000 additional permits without staff being available to execute it - the law introduces the concept that to be legally allowed to enter Germany the object needs an 'Exit' permit of the "country of origin". NOT the trade country or the last country it was collected, but the country of origin, whatever that may be. Example Roman objects - What is it ? Example a Picasso, is it Spanish ? Is it French ? Is it Swiss as the last collector for 50 years was Swiss ? Not English despite the dealer it was bought from was in London.
If no adequate documentation is given at entry the object can be confiscated straight away.
Dito for export from Germany to any other country.
VALUE AND AGE LIMITS:
The value cut off for example for archaeological objects above 100 years of age is expected to be from value zero (ie regardless of value), and coins as potentially archaeological objects are affected also. For example for old-timer cars the age limit is 75 years with a value of 50.000€. Drawings have a value limit of 15.000€. Fossils are also included, stamps, books, manuscripts, antique furniture, etc. All with different value and age cutoffs.
TREATY RELATED AGE CUTOFFs:
In addition there are time cutoffs for the need of this import permit INTO Germany that are linked to certain treaty dates: For EU countries the import permit requirement relate to objects if they have not been proven to have left their country of origin before 31. Dec 1992, and for UNESCO signatories before 26. April 2007. No prove means they are assumed to have left later.
No such timing limits for the export licence to go OUTSIDE of Germany, the criteria for export are still unclear.
C) OBLIGATIONS BEFORE TRADING CULTURAL OBJECTS ('Sorgfaltspflichten bei in Verkehrbringen')
ANYBODY:
Any collector or dealer has to prove before selling or trading a cultural object that the object was not lost, stolen, illegally imported or illegally excavated. If an object was bought with cash money, or the price seemed too low, or no expert was present, it is assumed doubtful. If the object is still traded, prison up to 3 years is foreseen, more for multiple offenses or gang related activities. It is open HOW one could prove exclusion of the above, especially retrospectively. Bureaucracy will be huge, as this is needed for every cultural object as there is no lower value limit. A beer mug on a flea market sold by a part-time dealer would be already affected
DEALERS ('gewerblich' includes by German law private individuals who sell objects multiple times over a year'):
Besides the obligation for anybody above, dealers have in addition to keep record of the name and address of the seller to them, and the buyer from them incl the prices, and document the identity of the object incl an image. they have to store this for 30 years, and any interested buyer can request the documentation incl the identities of previous owners of the object. If not done the dealer faces up to 3-5 years prison and up to 100.000 Euros penalty (10 years if a gang activity, ie multiple dealers acting together in a partnership)
IF the object is an archaeological object and valued above 100Euros the dealer has to do in addition extensive provenance searches outlined in the draft.
IF the object is other than archaeological the limit is 2500Euros for this activity.
IF the archaeological object has been in the family, proven for more than 20 years, the limit is not 100Euros but also 2500 Euros.
IF the object is a potential object from Syria or Iraq as identified by ICOM red lists (for example the Syrian list flags all Roman coins with the letters SC), there is no lower limit, any objects needs a provenance search.
D) REPATRIATION TO COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN:
Essentially the law requires the collector to prove the object has left the country of origin before 31.Dec 1992 for EU members or 26.April 2007 for UNESCO signatories to be safe from requests. All other objects can be requested by a country making a claim, under German courts, but using the cultural protection law of that country of origin (ie multiple foreign laws become the main driver within Germany). The new draft also outlines what has to happen when multiple foreign countries claim the same object (they have to come to an agreement amongst each other)
E) ILLEGAL EXACAVATIONS WITHIN GERMANY:
Up to 3 years of prison for illegal excavations within Germany (so far this was not seen as a crime that would trigger prison sentences)
DISCLAIMER: NOTE PLEASE I AM NOT A LAWYER, THERE MAY BE MISINTERPRETATIONS, THE DRAFT IS NOT THE FINAL LAW, AND SOME DETAILS ARE UNKNOWN UNTIL THE 'RECHTSVERORDNUNGEN' ARE ISSUED
Zuletzt geändert von raeticus am Fr 31.07.15 09:49, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
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Homer J. Simpson
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Re: Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
Ist doch prima - in der Sauregurkenzeit kann man sogar mit Krokodilen im Baggersee Schlagzeilen machen, warum dann nicht auch wir mit unserem bürgerlichen Aufruhr? Sollte doch jetzt in den Medien dankbarer aufgegriffen werden als zu einer Zeit, wo wirklich was los ist.Chandragupta hat geschrieben:Mal einen Hinweis am Rande:
...
Und weil wir gerade beim Thema "Münzzeitschriften" sind. Die Münzenwoche hat das Thema sofort aufgegriffen. Prima! Ich weiß das zu würdigen. Aber es gibt ja noch andere Journale: Money Trend, Münzen & Sammeln, MünzenRevue. Schlafen die alle?! Guten Morgen, liebe Redakteure! (Aber wie ich schon oben im Thread schrieb: Das haben "die" auch "prima getimed" mit der Sommerpausen-Sauregurken-Zeit...)
Homer
Wo is'n des Hirn? --- Do, wo's hiig'hört! --- Des glaab' i ned!
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Chandragupta
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Re: Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
Homer, ich bin bei "sowas" nicht so gut, da nicht optimal "vernetzt" unterwegs - aber ich grüble gerade über eine Idee...
Ihr kennt sie ja, die allgegenwärtigen "Flashmöbse" von allen und jedem zur Bewerbung/Kritisierung von jedem und allem ...
Das sollten "wir" vielleicht auch mal tun. Nämlich die Ministerin für Kulturgutvernichtung dadurch "ehren", indem wir eben "flashmobsig" (und natürlich videodokumentiert) Kulturgüter zerstören - Tenor: Für das, was schon vernichtet ist, können wir nicht mehr kriminalisiert werden!
Dazu müßten sich nur ein paar Leutchen mit einem Haufen von wertlosen Schrottmünzen aus der Grabbelkiste (gern auch gut gemachte Fälschungen - muß man ja nicht dazu sagen... ) zusammenfinden. Es müßten dann jedoch zwingend auch Silber/Billon-Münzen dabei sein. Die werden zunächst "toll präsentiert", also auf rotem Samtuntergrund, wobei wir ihren historischen Wert in höchsten Tönen rühmen, um sie dann in einem Muffelofen zu einem großen Metallklumpen zusammenzuschmelzen. Den verkaufen wir anschließend an die Scheideanstalt als "silberhaltigen Schrott", und die paar Euro, die wir dafür bekommen, spenden wir zusammen mit der Abrechnung der Scheideanstalt und der DVD, die alle Schritte sauber dokumentiert, Frau Prof. Grütters persönlich. Dann hat sie's, ihr "Kulturgut", in "ordnungsgemäß verwerteter Form". Sie will's ja so?!?
Das Video gibt's natürlich auch bei YouTube, und wir verlinken fleißig darauf...
Ihr kennt sie ja, die allgegenwärtigen "Flashmöbse" von allen und jedem zur Bewerbung/Kritisierung von jedem und allem ...
Das sollten "wir" vielleicht auch mal tun. Nämlich die Ministerin für Kulturgutvernichtung dadurch "ehren", indem wir eben "flashmobsig" (und natürlich videodokumentiert) Kulturgüter zerstören - Tenor: Für das, was schon vernichtet ist, können wir nicht mehr kriminalisiert werden!Dazu müßten sich nur ein paar Leutchen mit einem Haufen von wertlosen Schrottmünzen aus der Grabbelkiste (gern auch gut gemachte Fälschungen - muß man ja nicht dazu sagen...
) zusammenfinden. Es müßten dann jedoch zwingend auch Silber/Billon-Münzen dabei sein. Die werden zunächst "toll präsentiert", also auf rotem Samtuntergrund, wobei wir ihren historischen Wert in höchsten Tönen rühmen, um sie dann in einem Muffelofen zu einem großen Metallklumpen zusammenzuschmelzen. Den verkaufen wir anschließend an die Scheideanstalt als "silberhaltigen Schrott", und die paar Euro, die wir dafür bekommen, spenden wir zusammen mit der Abrechnung der Scheideanstalt und der DVD, die alle Schritte sauber dokumentiert, Frau Prof. Grütters persönlich. Dann hat sie's, ihr "Kulturgut", in "ordnungsgemäß verwerteter Form". Sie will's ja so?!?Das Video gibt's natürlich auch bei YouTube, und wir verlinken fleißig darauf...
Numismatische Grüße,
Euer Chandra
Euer Chandra
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stampsdealer
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Re: Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
Sendet bitte alle Tweets, danke.
Jürgen Schmidt @stampsdealer jetzt
Skandalgesetz Von Monika Grütters RECHTLICH CHANCENLOS !!!!!!!
http://muenzenwoche.de/de/News/4?&id=3566 …
@janfleischhauer @solms @c_lindner
0 Retweets 0 Favoriten
Jürgen Schmidt @stampsdealer jetzt
Skandalgesetz Von Monika Grütters RECHTLICH CHANCENLOS !!!!!!!
http://muenzenwoche.de/de/News/4?&id=3566 …
@janfleischhauer @solms @c_lindner
0 Retweets 0 Favoriten
Zuletzt geändert von stampsdealer am Fr 31.07.15 11:09, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
Re: Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
Endlich mal wieder etwas wirklich neues und konstruktivesIulia hat geschrieben:Den Verdacht habe ich schon seit einer Weile. Er arbeitet destruktiv. So geht z. B. der fantastische Link von Antoninus1 fast unter. Bitte unbedingt lesen!ChKy hat geschrieben: Lasst ihn, ist ein Spion, der gehört zur Gegenseite...
http://muenzenwoche.de/de/News/4?&id=35 ... 30.07.2015
Die fundierten Ausführungen dort bestätigen meine Vermutung, dass genau deswegen auch der sog. "autorisierte Referentenentwurf" noch nicht online steht... wer blamiert sich schon gern
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Mynter
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Re: Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
Da bleibt nur die gute, alte Zusammenfassung, wie wir sie in der Schule gerlernt habenraeticus hat geschrieben:Ein sehr guter Artikel im heutigen Handelsblatt, leider habe ich bisher keinen Weblink gefunden.
Grüsse, Mynter
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justus
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Re: Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
SBC: Sammler & Kollegen! Collectors & fellow dealers! Bitte lesen:Please read!!!
http://www.ebay.de/itm/SBC-Sammler-Koll ... 4aedf52848
http://www.ebay.de/itm/SBC-Sammler-Koll ... 4aedf52848
mit freundlichem Gruß
IVSTVS
-----------------------------------------------
https://www.numisforums.com/profile/245-justus/
https://independent.academia.edu/HJJost
http://www.muenz-board.com/
IVSTVS
-----------------------------------------------
https://www.numisforums.com/profile/245-justus/
https://independent.academia.edu/HJJost
http://www.muenz-board.com/
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stampsdealer
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Re: Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
Gegenwind vom 31. Juli 2015
Aufstand im Feuchtgebiet Kunsthandel
http://www.mittelbayerische.de/kultur-n ... 64759.html
Aufstand im Feuchtgebiet Kunsthandel
http://www.mittelbayerische.de/kultur-n ... 64759.html
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antoninus1
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Re: Neues Kulturgütergesetz in Deutschland ab 2016
Wieder so ein schlimmer Artikel, der behauptet, von dem Gesetz seien nur die Sammler teurer Bilder betroffen.
Gruß,
antoninus1
antoninus1
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